So Velour, you have now ordered JulieAnne around by telling her what she needs to do. So, my personal opinion is that churches need to stay out of medicine and medicine needs to stay out of religion and pew people as well as leadership need to try very hard to quit trying to tell each other what to do in the areas of medicine and certain other areas which we are not discussing here right now. There is more to the story with these people. Yep. You sure about that? Apparently you dont understand the nature of alcoholism if you dont think his case is bad enough. I have no idea why it quoted it twice and there was a glitch attributing Barbaras quote to you. I am sure this gossip card is one of the factors that allowed RC Sproul Jr. to get away with what he did for long. When I got home, I told my dad what R.C. His Mom, Vida, was no prize either. I definitely agree with #1 and #2. And its important to try. But I also fully agree with you. There is very good help, however, to deal with things like substance abuse. Without accountability, anything else is worthless. Perhaps you missed my list up the thread from last night. In fact, why dont you just ask her opinion of treatment? Thanks for giving us that information. Oh, excellent, Nancy2. Ill try hard to not do it again. The ironic thing, Velour, is that in my experience most recovering alkies, both in AA and CR, would encourage Lisa to show RC Jr tough love. Its a term that comes up often in CR meetings. That he is not qualified to serve as a pastor given his abusive history of church members, former church members, and other disqualifying behaviors; When people here casually toss around excommunicating and shunning peopleit the height of cruelty and you have no idea what will happen to them or their family. Velour wrote: A highway patrolman searching for the drunk driver who had been reported by someone witnessed the crash. Sounds like needs a blood transfusion! Please keep our nations decision makers in prayer over the next few weeks. Thats not going to happen to a church CEO within the church over which he presides. The Pittsburgh Press. Believe me, I am all for treatment, and I am extremely frustrated that there seems to be no way to help someone who doesnt want treatment, whether they deny they have a problem, or they admit that they have a problem but they dont want treatment anyway. By creating a false correlation you just gave him the excuse he needs, and youre not the only one here who keeps doing it. For it to happen they almost always have to have hit rock bottom. Al-Anon is extremely beneficial and informative, albeit unpleasant. By the very nature of the role he occupies, he likewise claims authority over what God is or is not saying to the members of the organisation. call alcoholics names here such as alkies and let those put downs remain unaddressed? I say its ironic because you seem so terribly concerned about keeping RC Jr in his church, while your typical recovering alkie would say just the opposite. I am so glad that Anne Lamott got help thats wonderful! Sproul, Jr.,s daughter) posted a listing of Sprouls offenses and saved me some time: Drunk driving with children. Ann Sproul of San Francisco, San Francisco County, California was born on January 25, 1931. HUG, precisely Paving the way, so to speak. You and Barbara Roberts have never said, You know, I have no clue how to deal with substance abuse.. Perhaps church is part of the problem not part of any solution. They have their own logic, and its different from yours. The county health plan and hospital also has appointments for people who cant afford private care. Some might call it being accountable. Correction of typo (I wish we could edit here! Most revealing are the forums and blogs by ex members. People need to wake up, I agree; and TURN from these deceivers and their despicable fatalistic, man-made gospel. Good heavens! Hes not going to jail or treatment? Intriguing. Sproul Jr. has done. I cannot add to or take away from Gods Word. A couple things stood out to me: Alcoholism changes the persons brain. The church. Much of the information posted is inaccurate both in substance and interpretation. And here is the moderators response to Cortney: Cortney, your story is not an isolated incident. Sproul shouldnt get the consequences of his actions, including the loss of his job. Velour was being hostile to a few people up thread such as Barbara and Julie Anne, and later, to me. Sproul 2. One or two DUIs is usually not enough. Thank you for sharing your familys story with such honesty, and hope. Many people including women secretly struggle with addiction in the church. I think its the same for followers of RC Sproul as well (and John MacArthur). No one can make him do that. If it was unwise youll have to help me see it. Other people were subjected to the same treatment. DUI/DWI with minors in the vehicle is a crime. Hi Daisy, @ jeff: In reading through the Spinderella blog, I read a number ofcomments which accused SproulJr. of telling people in his former church to stop taking medications for psychiatric disorders. A further thought, Velour. I am not trying to take you to task, because you are obviously passionately defending a carefully considered stance, but your mode of communication is obscuring your message. Will he receive it? What it did do is wake him up to his own sins and cause effective change immediately. Apparently he was genetically hardwired for alcoholism; from his first taste of alcohol, he immediately wanted more and more and more. Only in the past few months have I started posting a little here. And one thing an alky can sniff out in a heartbeat is an ignorant person trying to give them advice. I say this in support of Velour without being critical to either one of you who may have responded from your own pain. Velour wrote: It was as if there was a cry from heaven, as if Jesus heard the words God damn you, because thats what it meant to be cursed and under the anathema of the Father. I have with Dee, and you can also gain some insights from the article itself. Ive known some recovering alcoholics to go back to churches and to speak before the entire church about the damage they did to so many peoples lives, as well as make personal amends to people that they have harmed. Couldnt even stand up. Barbara advocated that people with substance abuse problems be kicked out of the church. But! Many of us have suffered tragedies. It is also true that there is an even higher standard for church pastors and leaders a number of scriptures address this issue. If he was working with a sponsor in a 12-step program he would be required to make a list of the people he had harmed and to make amends to them, except when do so would injure a person. Vesta Voorhis Sproul (age 84) is listed at 347 Bellview Pl Sanford, Fl 32771 and is affiliated with the Republican Party. On My Shelf The Gospel Coalition and Hubworthy Join Forces to Sell, Sell, Sell Books, This Wikipedia article covers things like the Ashley Madison. And he does say at the end of the article the Bible does not condemn alcohol, and so I cannot forbid my brother in Christ from drinking. We all hope that Dr. Sproul attempted to intercede with his sons alcoholism, rather than leaving his sons conscience to deal with it he was obviously in trouble. She was in the hospital for several months after the accident. Velour wrote: She understood my silence. Id be pretty surprised if this plea deal/arrest didnt come with some sort of treatment required/AA. Yes, you are correct I meant his own as in a new group unaffiliated with his fathers. Thank God it was always so late, thus basically no traffic. With one person I knew who was bailing out her adult sons I would tell her that she needs to let them experience the consequences of their actions. I believe God gave me a second chance at life, and I am so grateful! God gave me a second chance, and Im very grateful! he was charged with felonies not misdemeanors. Hes like Driscoll and so many others. Not all former drinkers transform into likeable people. * " S A> .,. But R.C. re: Sr. can keep Jr. from standing in the pulpit: This is not true. Could this be Justification by If Everybodys Doing It? With Barbara because he does need to be put out of the church as a minister (and that needs to be permanent) and as a member (although that could potentially be temporary). No prison time. I had to go things alone, with the depression and the death of a family member. But to just say that someone with a drinking/substance abuse problem in the church should be publicly humiliated is NOT how substance abuse is supposed to be handled or treated. Would you please, so as not to cause me to stumble, stop suggesting that it is wrong to drink alcohol in moderation, or that drinking alcohol in moderation somehow is a failure to love my brothers? spiritualsb@gmail.com. Sr. CAN keep Jr. from standing in the pulpit. I had to go things alone, with the depression and the death of a family member. Sproul Jrs spiritually abusive treatment of church members and whole families. I know that if I told my patient/client they could never change and they might as well give up now and just die, it would not only go against my professional code of ethics, but the passion of my training assisting others to get well. I have said nothing medical at all in any way. Sproul Sr. will experience, Heres hoping Dees post will have such an impact on someone that they will resolve to. was immature. If you know you have a problem with alcohol, you need to face up to your issue and get help. Sorry I cant help you, friend. She can run her blog how she likes. Sproul Jr.s excommunication. i think we can do without insinuations like this. I get full after two. I also prayed for the people who lurk here who struggle with addictions who were reeling from Barbaras words since yesterday. There is a reason that throughout time that isolation and solitary confinement have been used in just about every culture to break people. I am not the least bit surprised by this [RC JR using an adultery site] as its commonplace in alcoholic behavior and something that is covered in treatment and on-going recovery programs. He has been defrocked along with other troubles and has worked for years for his father who continued to pay him out of Ligonier funds in spite of his issues. Theres so much pain in the world. You are also incorrect that I am putting Barbara down because I disagree with her. Everyone here is pro-help for alcoholics, everyone here thinks that compassion is right. From just a casual observation hes not a drunk. They also drive very slowly and deliberately, overcontrolling. __ And what about all of the other people in the pews who watch that go downwho have problems? I realized I was consumed with anxiety and I sought professional help. Yes, job loss should happen for Sproul 2, but with the church directing him and supporting him into treatment. Awful. Heres hoping Dees post will have such an impact on someone that they will resolve to NEVER drink and drive. I used to be a nurse so that word is familiar to me. I guess its the just people who have suffered who understand. My hubby and his eight siblings suffered severely under their fathers alcoholism.the youngest is now 55, but the emotional scars linger. And having said that, I dont think I care to re-visit this thread to read any more new comments. The parents would go to the local country club on Saturday nights, and they paid me well to watch their children, who were fantastic little people. I wonder whether RC Sproul Senior has accepted that fact yet? Best to ignore the barbs. In fact the long term success stories are the exception, and according to CR headquarters what we experienced at our church is the statistical norm. but only if the person is dead serious about sobriety. Yes, he shouldnt have been on Ashley Madison, but hed lost his wife to cancer and was probably lonely. It doesnt take any effort to destroy such a lame excuse. The guy may have suffered tragedy but we all do in some way, shape or form. That intervention meeting was more than a decade ago, and I know theories can change over time.). As it turned out, my depression was more a symptom or a side effect, not the cause of my issues but no doctor I ever saw caught it. Hes has experienced tragedy and he needs treatment but at the core is still an odious personality. That is where God met me and my family member. Sproul, Jr. to capitalize on his father's recent death and pull the heartstrings of those who admired his father is inappropriate. . And, yes, thankful for Dee's post. I dont even think the sin leveler types would go with choices 1 or 3. I wasnt raised with the concept that your church keeps tabs on what youre up to. I sometimes walked around with a soda pop in one hand. ), you assume that Barbara is against treatment and have gone on and on about your assumption without even fact checking. I pray one day my conscience will grow stronger, so that this wouldn't be necessary. 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